Scott and Ibrahim, Correspondence

1) Ibrahim to Scott Asalamualaycom Scott. Thanks for asking about my wellbeing. I'm glad that we have a caring relationship. Boy oh boy, even though I've attempted to rest, the mental anxiety and stress I've got makes it hard. I'm starting a renal (kidney) research project down at the WSU Med School and I'm modeling the human skeletal system in a 3D computer program (an Anatomically correct one, which is very, very hard) Still, there is no doubt that in the last couple of weeks I've been able to get some much needed shut eye. I hope you and your family had yourselves a wonderful holiday. Well, this shiny coin of a topic you picked is a very valid one. However, I do feel as though I have a valid response to it...Now, in the Bible (talking mostly about the old testament) there is a theme, that God does afflicts people on earth, with pain, suffering and trials- not out of hate, or condemnation, but rather out of his divine plan. I can relate this in the Qur'an, which has the theme that God tests his subjects, the sons of Adam, out of love and in order that they may reap the benefits of reward. Lets take a man who I'm sure we both know: Job. Now, I know our beliefs about him are different. In the Bible, Job essentially cries out at God and asks him why he's being tormented, and God explains himself in an exerted fashion, and Job ends up comprehending a little bit of God's divine plan. In the Qur'an, Job is being tormented, but refuses to ask of God to be cured of his affiliation. He is patient with his affliction, and because of his patience and faith, God cures the affliction without Job asking him to. I obviously believe the latter story, but both are good stories for examining the context and qualities of an earthly affliction. There is a huge difference between inheriting a test in life, and inheriting eternal damnation. A test in life is essentially nothing compared to the latter. Being born with HIV, or being born with alcoholism are things that are indeed, very large tests. Furthermore, they're tests God (in my religious perspective) takes into account. In Islam, there is no cookie cutter rubric for "passing" your way into heaven- although there is a rubric of things you should surly be doing. God, on the day of Judgment, will know you better than you know you and he will know your afflictions and know your pains in life. He will be the Judge, and he will judge justly. That's why these tests God gives are on a leveled playing field. God isn't a simple computer- who carries out simple commands. God is closer to man than his jugular vein (as in the Qur'an) and he knows the complexity of every individuals life. He knows the complexity of every micro-organisms life. He is God after all. And he is Just. That's why Scott, these things make sense to me. The presumptively "unbalanced" playing field of life, is actually quite balanced when the right Judge is involved. You brought up abortion. I see that you believe it's an affliction on the child when he/she is aborted. Rather, I believe that it's an injustice to the person committing the abortion. In fact, when God address sinners and criminals in the Qur'an, he tells them that they are commuting injustice and crimes towards themselves. In my belief, the child's body dies, and the spirit earns a simple and painless entry to Heaven, to forever be with God. I know this is not your belief. I believe it is the mother and father who called for the abortion, and the Doctor who carried it out who need to repent. And if they do, sincerely, God will still forgive them. And from that list you gave me, people who have seemingly been "blessed" are indeed given a test from God. Let's say you're born with an incomprehensible amount of money. Will you fulfill your duty to feed the poor, and support the orphans? Or will you let greed and preference dictate that you are blessed by God, and that the lower quintiles are cursed? Will you treat others kindly? Or will you fall into a "privileged" style of attitude which God dislikes? Maybe it'd be easy for you or I to answer these, but look at the rich people. I mean, the fact that 90% of the wealth on earth is owned by 10% of the people is a testimony to how many people are afflicted by (and seemingly failing) this test. Even those men and women born into religious households are held to afflictions Scott. We've seen in time and time again. Of course, I don't want to go into the gruesome specifics, but I can think of Evangelical, Catholic, Jewish and Muslim modern-day figures who've thrown their weight around and either stole money, or sexually assaulted/raped people. So we can see that power, no matter what Kind, is an affliction as well. But you are right about one thing. No child chooses their religious belief when they're born- They're all Muslims. ; ) I think I've shown you my views and opinions in regards to your argument pretty well. There is no equivalency between damnation, and earthly affliction. Earthly affliction is but a test. Damnation- well, we know what that is. We, the human race, not being in the garden right now is aesthetic. It's an affliction- a temporary one. We can either take this test and pass, or fail. And Scott, the only reason why everyone dies, is because this test has to end sooner or later. Death is just a transitional state. I have sinned, but I am in the hands of a forgiving judge. Do I think I deserve punishment? Well, I don't think like that. I don't try to judge myself. I just follow the rules as best as I can. Do I have faith that my actions will lead me the heaven? Of course. However, once again, I don't want to be my own judge. We are similar Scott, but our beliefs are not. Why on earth would I want Muhammad to help me? I mean, he hasn't been seen in about 1500 years. Besides that obvious fact, he told people never to call on him for help. I hope you haven't been hanging around people who do that... The sin qualifies as shirk.Yes the prophet is dead. In fact, he wanted to be berried in an unmarked grave. He asked of his people that if it was known where he was buried, not to look upon his tomb for too long. Muhammad was a man. I like him, he was a good guy. And so was Moses, but he had a temper. And so was Jesus. I don't ask of the messengers for forgiveness, I ask of the one who sent them for forgiveness."Elahi Elahi, Lama Sabachtani!"- I worship who is being called on. Scott, I've got a question for ya. Why do you worship Jesus? What proves to you that Jesus is God? Yours, Ibrahim
2) Scott to Ibrahim Hi Ibrahim. Thanks for the quick turnaround. Here is an uncharacteristically quick reply from me too. I want to say I think you missed the point. It appears that you missed it almost entirely, though I could be wrong. But I don't think that we just disagree. I have simply failed to communicate my point clearly. That is discouraging. If you think you actually do get my point, and you want to make me feel better about myself, I invite you to try to articulate back to me what you believe I was taking great pains to express clearly. But it is possible that I am missing your point now too. Perhaps we are expressing ideas on two separate plains. The paragraph about Job is one of the reasons that I think you missed my point (or I am missing yours). I don't understand how that is related to the ideas that I was trying to express. My point is not about why people have afflictions, and why God allows that. I think we actually agree on that-- they are tests and punishments. It's really not about "Why?" at all. Rather, my point is the simple fact that children are born into the afflictions of their parents, even though they are innocent and pure (And their blessings, their genetic characteristics, some of their diseases, many of their habits and values and beliefs, and proclivities toward things.) Parents pass them on, intentionally and/or not intentionally. Human qualities of all kinds are generationally transferred. Therefore, even though children are innocent and pure they all become selfish, for example. On one level, children invariably learn the condition of selfishness from their parents, without exception. You and I both did, and my children did. And your children will. That's why all people are selfish. Parents (who are all selfish) cannot avoid teaching their children to be selfish. It is inevitable. Indeed, the better parents will try very hard to teach their children not to be selfish. And that is important and valuable. However, their children will still be selfish. It is impossible for children not to become selfish. (By the way, would you please provide me with the references to the Qur'anic texts on Job? Thanks.) Another reason I think you missed my point is this statement you made in the next paragraph: "There is a huge difference between inheriting a test in life, and inheriting eternal damnation." You see, I did not say that, nor do I believe that. A person does not inherit eternal damnation. After death, each person is judged on his or her own deeds and relationship of faith toward God. What people inherit from their parents is just about everything else, as I have so far failed to explain well. Thus, as another example, if child is born to parents that despise God, usually he will learn to despise God too. On a much broader scale, all children inherit from their parents a proclivity to turn from God and live for themselves, and to pursue the worthless treasures of the world instead of the eternal treasure of heaven. Another way of putting it is that they inherit the things they love and long for. Remember what I quoted from Jesus in John 3:19? "...the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light..." These are the kinds of things that people inherit from their progenitors. They are not all afflictions but they all cause people (of their own volition) to desire and value and pursue just about anything more than they desire and value and pursue God. Then, when they live out these desires and values and pursue the vanity that they lead to, that is what condemns people to hell. Here's a verse from the Apostle James that may be helpful (1:14-15):"But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=James+1 Another statement of Jesus sheds light on the nature of sin as well (John 8:34): “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin." As for this statement of yours, I agree with this wholeheartedly. Does it seem to you that I don't? "The presumptively 'unbalanced' playing field of life, is actually quite balanced when the right Judge is involved." But this does not negate the main point above: Life's "playing fields" are generationally transferred, whatever they are. There is a pattern here. I also agree with this statement of yours: "In my belief, the child's body dies, and the spirit earns a simple and painless entry to Heaven, to forever be with God. I know this is not your belief." Really? Why do you think you 'know' that about my beliefs? WRONG. But even if a parent's evil turns out better for the child, the act was still evil. Right? And the child experiences the results of the sins of the parents. We should think of them as victims of parental evil. (And gosh, many people who have abortions seem like such nice and good people otherwise. They give to charity, they raise the kids well that they didn't kill, they serve on the city beautification committee, etc. Point: One often cannot tell what kinds of evil and sin people have committed when they seem like such upstanding citizens in every other observable way.) Finally, you asked a very good question: "Why do I worship Jesus?" I thought you'd never ask. There is more than one reason, but here's a simple one. I worship the Messiah who is One with Almighty God because he has demonstrated the supreme act of love for me: He sacrificed His life and then defeated the power of death. Like no one else ever did, Jesus proved himself supremely worthy of my worship and devotion. He has also come into my formerly dead heart to give me new life and desires, to change me, to give me his hope and joy, a Kingdom purpose, and the enduring promise of eternal life. I do not wonder where I will spend eternity. I will spend it with Jesus and the Father. Finally, I also worship Jesus because I am so impressed with his claims that I find in the Bible. Here's one example. Please click on this link and see if you can discern what Jesus was telling his audience:http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=John+8%3A39-59 Very sincerely, Scott